what elephant in the corner?
Jun. 23rd, 2005 09:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
electriclandoh, you mean this elephant.
I was quite surprised by the response to my post on Tuesday. Also delighted. Also unnerved. (I hate confrontation.) But mostly fascinated.
This exchange has seemingly sparked off discussion all over my friends list, which is really cool. It's also catalyzed a ton of thoughts in my head, about feminism, about women's experience of the world, about neuroscience and evolutionary biology, about how we make sense of our daily experiences, which I won't attempt to post all at once because the post would be about a mile long. But bits are coming.
First, though, I want to thank everyone who posted for keeping the discussion comparatively civil even when the discussion got quite upsetting and even when you felt, rightly or wrongly, that you were being personally attacked. Let's keep it that way, 'k?
Second, I want to say how awed and grateful I am to know so many articulate, passionate, amazing women who are willing to stand up for their point of view and able explain things so much more clearly than I can.
For those of you just joining us:
I never thought my original post would lead to so much discussion and go down so many pathways. It was a fairly lighthearted post about an experience which I suspected would strike a chord for a lot of women: random guy speaks to you, you don't want to talk to him, he demands to know why you don't want to talk to him, you decline to give an explanation, he gets pissed off and tells her so. Boy was I ever right about that. A lot of women chimed in to say "Yup, been there," or "I HATE that!" or "Why do some men feel like they have the right to behave like that?"
And then a man posted, and it was clear from his comment that, even though he would probably never behave like that himself, he hadn't really got what the original post was about. He offered a counterexample: guy speaks to a random woman, she completely overreacts, he gets pissed off (but doesn't say anything). Another woman tried to explain why the two situations were different. And it went from there down a lot of pathways, like the actual statistics on violence, and how likely it is under a given circumstance that a woman or a man will be attacked, whether women's caution and fear in certain spaces is legitimate, and so on. All of which was very interesting, because our male poster -- I'm willing to believe, not out of malice, but in a positive attempt to be helpful -- really was not getting it. He encouraged the women posters in the thread to stand up for themselves, learn self-defense, be willing to fight back. (These are all positive things, incidentally.) He pointed out that men get attacked and killed too. What he didn't seem to be able to grasp was that women's subjective experience, what we go through daily from the time we are very young indeed, is different than a man's, and that this of necessity shapes our behaviour and our responses to other people. That sometimes not being friendly to Random Guy is part of our self-defence strategy. He was, I think, really upset to think that some women walk around with these constant calculations in our heads.
Where I think he had a disconnect in his thinking is in assuming that these experiences, these considerations, make us feel weak and afraid and powerless. (Jump in any time if I'm totally misinterpreting.) I'm guessing that the women he knows don't seem weak and afraid and powerless, so he assumes that they don't have these considerations and experiences in the background. I am betting, and the other women in that thread are betting, that they do. We all do. We move on, we deal, we make jokes about them, we don't keep them in the forefront of our lives. But they colour our experiences and our reactions, and we would actually be very stupid and foolhardy not to let this happen, because that is how instinct and gut reaction help keep us safe. Split-second reactions are the result of your brain integrating an enormous body of accumulated life experience and coming to a decision without being consciously aware of it happening. Allowing for the fact that everyone is an individual, women's accumulated experience is different than men's, and their reactions will therefore also be different, and it is not weak or anti-feminist to say so.
One last thing (for now). Every individual human being's life is a collection of subjective experiences. By definition, I can't know everything about what's happening in another person's head, what's happened to them over the course of their lives, because I'm not them. (Children typically gain this awareness that not everyone has the same collection of experience and knowledge at around age 4. Children with a developmental disability, or brain-damaged adults, may not have this awareness.) But that doesn't mean that those experiences are not real. To look at my post from Tuesday, at the comments of a lot of women who've had similar experiences, and to say "Well, I've never experienced that, and it's just you, it doesn't apply to all women, so it's not relevant and it's nothing to do with me" is not only unhelpful, it's profoundly insulting. It also treats a near-universal social problem as an individual problem to be solved by individual women.
More to come.
I was quite surprised by the response to my post on Tuesday. Also delighted. Also unnerved. (I hate confrontation.) But mostly fascinated.
This exchange has seemingly sparked off discussion all over my friends list, which is really cool. It's also catalyzed a ton of thoughts in my head, about feminism, about women's experience of the world, about neuroscience and evolutionary biology, about how we make sense of our daily experiences, which I won't attempt to post all at once because the post would be about a mile long. But bits are coming.
First, though, I want to thank everyone who posted for keeping the discussion comparatively civil even when the discussion got quite upsetting and even when you felt, rightly or wrongly, that you were being personally attacked. Let's keep it that way, 'k?
Second, I want to say how awed and grateful I am to know so many articulate, passionate, amazing women who are willing to stand up for their point of view and able explain things so much more clearly than I can.
For those of you just joining us:
I never thought my original post would lead to so much discussion and go down so many pathways. It was a fairly lighthearted post about an experience which I suspected would strike a chord for a lot of women: random guy speaks to you, you don't want to talk to him, he demands to know why you don't want to talk to him, you decline to give an explanation, he gets pissed off and tells her so. Boy was I ever right about that. A lot of women chimed in to say "Yup, been there," or "I HATE that!" or "Why do some men feel like they have the right to behave like that?"
And then a man posted, and it was clear from his comment that, even though he would probably never behave like that himself, he hadn't really got what the original post was about. He offered a counterexample: guy speaks to a random woman, she completely overreacts, he gets pissed off (but doesn't say anything). Another woman tried to explain why the two situations were different. And it went from there down a lot of pathways, like the actual statistics on violence, and how likely it is under a given circumstance that a woman or a man will be attacked, whether women's caution and fear in certain spaces is legitimate, and so on. All of which was very interesting, because our male poster -- I'm willing to believe, not out of malice, but in a positive attempt to be helpful -- really was not getting it. He encouraged the women posters in the thread to stand up for themselves, learn self-defense, be willing to fight back. (These are all positive things, incidentally.) He pointed out that men get attacked and killed too. What he didn't seem to be able to grasp was that women's subjective experience, what we go through daily from the time we are very young indeed, is different than a man's, and that this of necessity shapes our behaviour and our responses to other people. That sometimes not being friendly to Random Guy is part of our self-defence strategy. He was, I think, really upset to think that some women walk around with these constant calculations in our heads.
Where I think he had a disconnect in his thinking is in assuming that these experiences, these considerations, make us feel weak and afraid and powerless. (Jump in any time if I'm totally misinterpreting.) I'm guessing that the women he knows don't seem weak and afraid and powerless, so he assumes that they don't have these considerations and experiences in the background. I am betting, and the other women in that thread are betting, that they do. We all do. We move on, we deal, we make jokes about them, we don't keep them in the forefront of our lives. But they colour our experiences and our reactions, and we would actually be very stupid and foolhardy not to let this happen, because that is how instinct and gut reaction help keep us safe. Split-second reactions are the result of your brain integrating an enormous body of accumulated life experience and coming to a decision without being consciously aware of it happening. Allowing for the fact that everyone is an individual, women's accumulated experience is different than men's, and their reactions will therefore also be different, and it is not weak or anti-feminist to say so.
One last thing (for now). Every individual human being's life is a collection of subjective experiences. By definition, I can't know everything about what's happening in another person's head, what's happened to them over the course of their lives, because I'm not them. (Children typically gain this awareness that not everyone has the same collection of experience and knowledge at around age 4. Children with a developmental disability, or brain-damaged adults, may not have this awareness.) But that doesn't mean that those experiences are not real. To look at my post from Tuesday, at the comments of a lot of women who've had similar experiences, and to say "Well, I've never experienced that, and it's just you, it doesn't apply to all women, so it's not relevant and it's nothing to do with me" is not only unhelpful, it's profoundly insulting. It also treats a near-universal social problem as an individual problem to be solved by individual women.
More to come.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 02:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-24 03:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 02:18 pm (UTC)That is totally alien to my mindset, and - I would bet - the same to all of my female friends (well, except one who's in a wheelchair and is therefore careful about /everything/).
So, I *would* challenge the generalisation that women have this fundamental different attitude to the world than men do. The espoused attitude there was totally different to /my/ attitude.
The divide may come down to locale, but I was as surprised as your male poster to hear that "all women feel this way". I sure don't. If I was one of the guy's female friends that he was told to poll, I would have looked blankly at him and said "um, what are they talking about?!"
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 03:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 06:17 pm (UTC)When you're in the grocery store and Random Guy tries to strike up a conversation with you, when you just want to get your stuff and get out, and he's persistent and not hearing you say no despite you clearly blowing him off, does that not raise a red flag?
Do you not ever get a spark of intuition that a particular person you're talking to may not be as nice as they seem?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 02:19 pm (UTC)Which is putting responsability on the victim of not being a victim, rather than on the harrasser of not harrassing in the first place.
In other words, it's women's fault if men won't take no for an answer! Bullshit.
To look at my post from Tuesday, at the comments of a lot of women who've had similar experiences, and to say "Well, I've never experienced that, and it's just you, it doesn't apply to all women, so it's not relevant and it's nothing to do with me" is not only unhelpful, it's profoundly insulting. It also treats a near-universal social problem as an individual problem to be solved by individual women.
Indeed. More victim-blaming behaviour, to refuse to even acknowledge the victim's experience as reality. And it bespeaks enormous privilege and entitlement.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 02:27 pm (UTC)I don't have to do that all the time, since most of my time is spent at home, but when I am out and about, wherever I am, I keep at least a general sort of tabs on my surroundings. Having had a negative experience or two before, and having learned to trust my gut on many occasions (the gut has been 90-95% correct), I listen to my gut reactions all the time. If I start feeling uncomfortable, I do whatever needs doing to stop that. It is a survival mechanism, and an unfortunately necessary one.
Where this overlaps with feminism and society... well, that could get long. But feminism is about seeking equal opportunity (not blanket equality) for women, and having women recognized as equally valued members of society and not just adjuncts to their male counterparts. Society has been making advances toward this, and for that I am very grateful and happy.
Where it breaks down, however, is in the media and in individual households where "traditional values" means that the woman stays home and manages the house (and kids, if she has any), and she has no other say elsewhere. Or worse, in areas where women are seen as trophies or property. (Any person who says, "MY woman" without being tongue in cheek gets me angry. Ditto with "MY man," in case someone wanted to point out an inequity in my argument.)
So long as this still happens, where you have rampant portrayals and ideas where women are seen and valued more as an object, for the service she can provide rather than the person she is, women will still be subjected to behaviors as relatively innocuous as the "Nice Guy" (see Heartless Bitches for a good definition), to as dangerous as rape, torture and murder. No matter where we live, we all need to be on our guard for any and all of these, and hopefully be pleasantly surprised when none comes our way.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 03:33 pm (UTC)That sometimes not being friendly to Random Guy is part of our self-defence strategy. He was, I think, really upset to think that some women walk around with these constant calculations in our heads.
I think, if I can try to expand further on your thought, it's not that women (or the women I know and can reasonably speak for) size every man we meet on the street or in a bar up as a potential rapist but women, and certainly women of my/our generation were raised to be more aware of the risk and prevalence of sexual violence than earlier generations of women. Not because the 70/80s were more violent but because the women's movement were suceeding in bringing these issues to light and creating an awareness of them that went beyond "good girls don't" and taking the first steps towards de-stigmatizing the victims of sexual violence, who continue to be overwhelmingly female.
Part of this involves putting the blame for sexual predation on the predators where it belongs. So young women are told to be careful about walking alone at night, about drugs and alcohol, going into boys' roooms, watching your drink in bars lest some creep slip you a mickey, for pity's sake--it's no wonder that women are sometimes overly cautious around unfamiliar men, particularly in places like bars. This is part and parcel of the standing up, defending, willingness to fight that your male poster suggests women should embrace.
No one wants to live in fear, no one wants to be so hyper-aware of their safety that they become paranoid or emotionally stunted. But sometimes, for some people, getting tough and taking care of yourself means sacrificing some of the nice. And guys need to learn that they can't have their cake and eat it too--either women need to be responsible for their own safety (setting aside the blame the victim bullshit), in which case, we're not goint to be sunshine and happy faces to every random guy that comes up and starts chatting us up, or not, in which case, guys need to suck it up and take issues like date rape and put some teeth behind slogans like "no means no."
It's not the 1950s (and I'm pretty sure the 1950s weren't the 1950s) and it's not one big malt shoppe out there. I'd far rather raise my daughters and nieces to be strong and self-confident and smart about their safety, and if that means they're a little curt sometimes, better that then the alternative.
Another male's point of view
Date: 2005-06-23 03:39 pm (UTC)Ignoring the way-OT tangents that that commentary thread took (like, egads!), I would like to offer another male perspective on the original comments made there...
1) First of all, when the male poster said the words "I can't wait to tell my girlfriend.", I just assumed his entire post was dripping in humour and sarcasm. It's interesting to me to now see that a) others didn't see it that way, and b) he doesn't even seem to be claiming that now... *shrug*
2) That aside, there was a lot of posting there about the female experience being different from the male experience, and I absolutely believe that. So from my male experience (which, in my case, includes having spent most of my life with mostly female friends, so I've had a LOT of conversations about topics very similar to this one), let me tell you that I perceive part of the problem is the following:
When a strange man comes up to you and says: "Come over here and talk to me."
You perhaps hear: "Come over here, and I may be a nice guy... or I may be dangerous. You have no way to tell." and react with "Better safe than sorry, I'll say no".
But when you say "I don't want to."
Most men, having no real understanding of the fear which women have, will in fact hear something like: "I have somehow magically sussed you out from your 3 seconds of speaking to me and have come to the conclusion that YOU, specifically, are either uninteresting or dangerous."
In other words, you may be expressing caution towards all men as a gender; but we are most likely to interpret that as rejection of ourselves, one specific human being. It rarely if ever occurs to us that what's being expressed is "caution about strange men in general" rather than "rejection of ME specifically".
You asked how you could have handled the situation differently? I'm not sure there's anything, but the best I could offer is to suggest making it clear that it's not something specific about the person in question that lead to the "No, thanks". But that said, I don't know if even outright saying something like "I'm just not interested in speaking with anybody I don't know right now, thanks" would work. Cuz, you know, being men, we'd just assume that you're trying to find a nice way to reject us. You bitches. :)
Cu,
Andrew
Re: Another male's point of view
Date: 2005-06-23 04:02 pm (UTC)Re: Another male's point of view
Date: 2005-06-23 06:19 pm (UTC)It might BE a rejection of you specifically though. So what? Not every person in the world wants to be your friend, even if you are a good guy.
Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:(no subject)
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-06-24 01:11 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: Another male's point of view
From:again with the commentage...
From:Re: again with the commentage...
From:Re: again with the commentage...
From:Re: again with the commentage...
From:Re: again with the commentage...
From:Re: again with the commentage...
From:Re: Another male's point of view
Date: 2005-06-23 06:27 pm (UTC)But why does Random Woman even owe that much to Random Guy? Why do I have to stop and explain myself? Why does he have that claim on my time when all I'm doing is walking past him? Why can't I just say "No" and that be enough, and I'm not a bitch, I'm just not interested in talking to him right now? This whole sense of Random Guy having an entitlement on my time is irritating and insulting at best, and part of the overall societal view that women are less than men. Less important, less valued, just less. My time is important to me. If I don't want to spend it explaining to the poor delicate guy that it's really not personal, I just don't want to talk to anyone right now, I hope it doesn't hurt your poor delicate feelings, then I don't have to, and it doesn't make me a bitch. Maybe I do want to talk to someone, but it's not him. So what? If I try to strike up a conversation with a random guy on the street, and he says he's not interested and walks away, no-one is looking at him like he's a jerk, no-one's calling him an asshole. Why is it not the same for me?
Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:oops....
From:Re: oops....
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
Date: 2005-06-24 08:19 pm (UTC)When a strange man comes up to you and says: "Come over here and talk to me."
a stranger makes a demand of another stranger "come over here" is phrased as a demand/order, not a request. even if it was phrased as a request, would any adult assume that they can demand or ask something of a complete stranger and *expect* to get it? and if they don't get it, that it's acceptable to consider the stranger who refused to be rude, a bitch, etc.? i don't know any adults, male or female, who believe they're entitled to have their whims catered to that way by total strangers or that sulking, getting pissy or calling names is an appropriate response when they don't get their own way.
Most men, having no real understanding of the fear which women have, will in fact hear something like: "I have somehow magically sussed you out from your 3 seconds of speaking to me and have come to the conclusion that YOU, specifically, are either uninteresting or dangerous."
i disagree completely that there's "fear which women have" at the bottom of this issue (although i realise the conversation has veered and that's not something initially brought up).
i also take exception to the idea that "most men" are so emotionally immature and/or socially inept that they are unable to differentiate between "a complete stranger didn't want to give me something i asked for/demanded. i guess sie didn't want to" and "what a horrible, rude person to not give me what i ask for when i ask for it" or assume the stranger considers them dangerous, uninteresting, etc.
there may well be men like that, but the men i know most certainly aren't.
You asked how you could have handled the situation differently? I'm not sure there's anything, but the best I could offer is to suggest making it clear that it's not something specific about the person in question that lead to the "No, thanks".
i also take exception to the ideas that a) all (or even most!) grown men are so emotionally fragile and helpless that they need to be treated (by strangers!) with kid gloves to avoid having their feelings hurt and b) that women should take responsibility for the emotional well-being of any stranger who approaches them. if anyone (male or female) has such a shaky self-image that a complete stranger brushing them off is that damaging or hurtful, figuring out why you're giving strangers that amount of power of your happiness should be your priority. but expecting to be cossetted by strangers just because they're female isn't realistic.
Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:Re: Another male's point of view
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 03:59 pm (UTC)I responded to your initial post of a man being a jackass with one of a woman being a jackass. Just to balance things out a bit.
Then an angry responder starting speaking FOR ALL WOMEN and saying things about their mindsets and attitudes that most women I know would find offensive.
Then things digressed into a morass arguments that mostly seemed to have nothing to do with my position that one person can't just decide to speak for everyone without being foolish. Trying to make all of any large demographic fit into one set of assumptions is called stereotyping where I come from. I was always taught not to do it. Obviously, that is not near-universal.
Interestingly enough, the whole "weaker and smaller" thing came up yesterday in conversation on our porch when the woman who lives downstairs was talking about working security. This one place she worked wouldn't let women work the mosh pit because they were "smaller and weaker". And we all had a disgusted laugh about that.
when moominmuppet (sorry I don't know the actual lj tag for that)my roommate asked, "And were you smaller and weaker than all of the men who worked security?" she was answered, "No! I was bigger and stronger than most of them."
Anyway, I'm sorry I started this whole debacle. There's nothing quite so much fun as getting a steady stream of hate e-mail from people who want to argue something because they get all emotional without actually reading what they're arguing against.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 04:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 06:05 pm (UTC)What I said was that women live in a different reality than men do. We consciously or subconsciously evaluate every situation in a manner a man doesn't even have on his radar.
If you are truly a Nice Guy, as you claim to be, you'll read Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear" and you'll take what he says into yourself and you'll understand what all this discussion has been about.
Instead of getting defensive, why don't you re-read the thread, and this one, with an open mind after you read that book.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 07:19 pm (UTC)In other words, what you're seeing in the "bitch" is the reflection of the other men who've taught her to be wary and suspicious. Want women to stop acting like that? Start convincing your fellow men to stop pressuring them until they build walls against social interaction.
Incidentally, when a whole heaping bunch of people find what you're saying to be objectionable, it's worth considering that you're either saying something objectionable or failing to explain/speak clearly. (If one person misunderstands you, it's probably their problem. If 50 do, it's yours. This is leaning towards the latter at this point.)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 09:09 pm (UTC)Now, that's not to say it's acceptable. I do, however, think it is sometimes understandable. Interestingly, I don't see anybody arguing that sometimes it goes this way:
WOMAN: Hi.
MAN: Hi.
WOMAN: Wanna hook up?
MAN: No.
WOMAN: OH MY GOD, WHAT ARE YOU, SOME KIND OF PRUDE?
So, am I wary of strange guys who chat me up in the street? Um. YES. Do I wanna get yelled at by a crazy? Um. NO.
The issue of whether or not I consider the possibility that said guy might rape me is, in my opinion, completely beside the point.
I understand that people made it the point yesterday. But it does look like you're completely missing
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 04:03 pm (UTC)I have never been afraid. I have never thought about potential risks and dangers involved in talking to someone. I don't constantly evaluate my surroundings, unless I'm walking home alone. Admittedly, if I was in the street by myself and at night, and some stranger said to me "Come talk to me", I'd run like no woman has run before. But that, I gather, is not the point here.
I'm astonished so many women allow themselves to be so scared that they think of themselves as victims. Because we're not.
And I'm sure it's not just me :) Well done for keeping this discussion going, Ell, as always, LJ provides an apt forum to hear other people's points of view(s)!
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 04:24 pm (UTC)So first you blame women for being victims and then you deny they're victims and yet you say that if you'd been in their situation you'd have run.
Why do you put the responsability on women for being scared instead of putting it on the men who cause the danger women are afraid of in the first place?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 04:48 pm (UTC)Friendliness is a gift we can give when we feel like it, not a tax we pay on every moment out in the open. To be busy, or cold, or just not interested is everyone's right, and makes real friendliness worth more.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 06:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 07:18 pm (UTC)Not that I'm saying I dont assess random strangers. I do, all the time, even weak old men who are smaller than me. Why? Because looks can be deceiving and random weak old man might not be as weak or as innocent as he may look.
When I was a barmaid for a while I got advised by a regular customer who was also a martial arts teacher that if the occaision ever arose where I was being attacked by a man that I should poke him in the eye, blind him if I have to because the pain of it and the inability of the attacker to see afterwards allows you to escape. He said he tells good female students to do this also no matter how good they are at fighting. I thought at the time I'd never be able to poke someone in the eyes, but under pressure I think I might.
We shouldnt need to feel afraid as women, but it is not our fault if the random man we meet tomorrow/next week/next year decides that we are to be his next victim...
no subject
Date: 2005-06-23 08:38 pm (UTC)I, for one, have NO doubt in my mind that I could cause some serious harm and even kill someone if they were trying to hurt my child. I used to say I didn't think I could actually kill someone, but once I had that child, there was no doubt in my mind.
plaid again...
Date: 2005-06-23 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-24 01:08 am (UTC)The disconnect is further aggrivated by the fact that in all my discussions on feminism with the female friends, not one has agreed with the sentiment. Most objected strongly. Some said they had friends that felt that way, but they pitied them. One simply noted, as I did, that being around in the 80's and coming from a major city rather than being young and from a pseudo-urban sleepy spot probably makes all the differance.
So, then, presuming that such a psychology of caution and self-assurance exists, there still remains a query as to whats to be be done or thought regarding the specific situation that spawned the discussion- what to do when a guy says hello to a girl.
It seems to me that this aspect of the discussion has focused on a dichotomy between women having the right to tell men to fuck off vs. men having the right to feel personally rejected if they did. Which is to me is a silly use of the word "right" because:
a) Of course women have the right to say fuck off without worrying about how the guy will feel
b) Of course many instances will arise where they call upon that right
c) Of course this doesn't give a guy a right to be insulting
None of that, however, negates the fact the guy is likely to have his feelings hurt. Because the guys feelings aren't about arrogance and privalage- just the opposite. Many guys I know, geeks that they are, when they talk to a woman, are scared of them (albiet in a totally differant way then the one their scared of us). Even the more confident guys don't go in with any sense of having a claim on the womans time, they are just being sociable. However, we've been socialised to believe that if you're open to people, they'll be open to you; that people will like you for who you really are; that if somebody tells you to fuck off, its your fault and you did something wrong.
So, again putting in the obvious disclaimer than insulting the girl is wrong, of course we're going to feel hurt if we're giving the impression we're being personally dismissed. And without arguing whether women have the right to act that way, because they do, there is reasonable grounds for discussion within the broader field of "Is there a better way to approach it so nobody gets hurt?". I can see the obvious response of "My natural behaviour shouldn't be impinged on by the insecurity of the penis-carrying greagarious-slash-dangerous ones", which is fair. But its really a simple extension of the principle that men should consider womens drives and fears that the inverse should occur. It's just be a personal preferance that I didn't get spit all over my leather jacket because I offered to help you with a flat tyre, even if you are gay and can do it yourself.
Feminism remains perhaps the worlds most successful social revolution. Ideas considered insane and dangerous a hundred years ago were commonly held by the war, and new ideas were considered dangerous and heretical. About half-century passes, those ideas are common sense, a new set are "going too far" and "not wanted". Which is fine by me. These sorts of issues seem more and more at the cusp of feminist thought at the moment and I would not be suprised if, given another 50 years, the views I ahve trouble grasping are common sense for grandchidlren (not mine, of course, but I expect somebody'll have some) and I'll be the old man who never really gets it.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-24 01:55 pm (UTC)I think rejection, and feelings of rejection, are situational to some extent. If I don't want to talk to a guy, I'm likely to be more curt about it if it's late at night on the street vs. if I'm in a bar with friends, when I'll try to be pleasant and polite at the very least and maybe give an explanation. As a result of this thread, I'm now thinking of issuing a public service announcement or making little cards of some kind to hand out, because at least in my case, rejection is very rarely personal. The "No thanks" in my original dialogue (which incidentally is much more likely to happen on the street, in a park, on public transit, wherever, than in a normal social situation where it's kind of expected that people will be friendlier and more outgoing) could mean any of the following or more, and they're all equally likely:
I'm on my way to work and I'm running late
I'm not really comfortable in these surroundings and I was actually leaving when you spoke to me
I'm here with my friends, it's somebody's birthday
I'm busy
I'm reading
I'm trying to concentrate
I'm eating
I'm not in a sociable mood
It's 2 a.m. and I'm exhausted and slightly drunk and I don't feel like talking
I have to leave
I have the flu
You remind me of my friend's skeezy ex
I'm getting a weird vibe off this guy
Oh man, he's with a bunch of rowdies and they're all staring
Again, this is just me, and I'm a tad single-focused and shy in company ANYWAY. But please -- guys -- consider this your public service announcement. There are THOUSANDS of reasons a woman might not feel like talking. Only in rare cases is it personal.
General thoughts on lots of different comments...
Date: 2005-06-24 02:54 am (UTC)1. The difference between fear and awareness.
Extreme fear hinders. That is true. Awareness does not. I don't have any great desire to get hit by a car, one might even say I'm afraid of it...because I'm sure it would hurt. Instead of just hoping and relying on luck to keep it from happening, I pay attention to traffic lights and look both ways before I cross the street. While there is still a chance that someone will run a red light or come speeding around the corner, by being AWARE of what's going on around me, I greatly reduce the chance of becoming roadkill.
Awareness of the world around us is a vital part of life. It's not necessarily always called fear, but we (most of us, male or femail) asses risks in our lives and act accordingly because there is a part of the brain that says "Hey! That could be bad!!" whether it means don't step in front of moving cars, don't walk down certain streets after dark or don't pick up knives by the blade or put your hand on the hot stove burner.
I'm not constantly afraid of being burned, but when I cook I am CAUTIOUS. I use pot holders and don't leave things unattended. Because even if it's not always on my mind, I know that there is a risk involved in cooking.
Much like not wanting to be hit by a car or burned, I don't want to get into a situation with another person where I am in over my head and can't get out. So, I pay attention when i'm talking to people. Though there are situations in which I BECOME afraid... I generally try to stay AWARE so I can avoid the escalation to fear.
2. The difference between "Hi" and "Well Helloooo there."
As with everything else, there are cues when with dealing with people and trying to understand them. So, when I don't respond to someone on the street, often it's not because I'm afraid, but because there is something in the way he approached me that either I don't find appealing or makes me uncomfortable. If a guy says "Hi" I generally won't freak out. Because that's polite, that's normal. I am even willing to respond to "how are you," "Nice day isn't it?" or any number of other openings. If, however, his first approach is something less, shall we say polite, I will continue walking without response. For example, I have received the following as 'greetings': "Hey baby" "Damn, baby got back," "Hey gorgeous, how you doin'?," (because apparently some men look to Joey Tribiani as romantic mentor) "You got a man? You want one?," "Hey beautiful, c'mere," the every popular "MMMmmm MMmm" and so on. That is not my idea of sociable. Nothing said after that opening will make me want to get to know him.
3. The difference between feeling rejected and being an asshole.
If I keep walking, he has the right to feel rejected because I did reject him. He has the right to be pissed. He even has the right to yell angry things. But him yelling "Hey bitch, I was talking to you! What, you think you're too good for me?" is not going to make me change my mind and turn back to give him my number. In fact, it's just going to reinforce my belief that he is not someone I want to talk to and be glad that I trusted my judgment. Thus, I consider how he carried himself, the manner in which he approached me, I attend to it and I add it to my understanding of the world for the next time someone approaches me.
4. Gathering and synthesizing information... what's that called again?
Gernally, we call that learning. We make our children learn to pick up on social cues, learn how to act appropriately in various situations, learn not to yell in church or laugh at a funeral, or (hopefully) harass people on the street. And the learning never really stops. It's not the kind of thing that really takes a great deal of time and energy but it's something all of us do to varying degrees in our lives (how to act in a job interview, etc.)... it just so happens that women often apply it to this particular type of social interaction and some men (based on the fact that they continue to approach by cat call despite it almost never working) do not.
Re: General thoughts on lots of different comments...
Date: 2005-06-24 01:36 pm (UTC)Re: General thoughts on lots of different comments...
From: