electricland

I agree with you - all the problems which encourage high gas prices are structural, not the fault of the gas companies. Not buying gas is not going to solve anything, or change anything for the oil companies. They make their money selling it to the distributors, you think they care?

From:

(Preamble: I went a wee bit tangential here, I really did intend to reply in a concise fashion but apparently not today. Sorry that its not exactly a reply so much as a rant)

I'm not an expert on the pricing of gas or anything even approaching it... however, (you knew it was coming) the way that I understand the pricing at the pumps goes something like this: crude oil prices go up by fractions of a cent, this means that in 6 or so months after all the processing and shipping and all of that crap is done the actual gas that is coming out of the pump will cost the oil companies more. Instead of waiting the 6 or so months to increase the price on gas they hit the distributors the very day if not the very hour that an increase in the crude oil prices is announced.

Hell, even if an increase is expected and never materializes the price at which the oil conglomorates sell gas tends to go up. I very much agree that the use of gas in Canada and the States is a structural problem to do with civil planning and end user expectations but something about saying that oil companies aren't at fault stuck in my craw as it were... they are as a group a horrible bunch of human beings. So any sort of organizing to poke them in the eye, even one that is at best going to be a pyrrhic victory seems appealing. I know they are in business to make money, but they are the industrial equivalent of crack dealers.

From:

Yeah, except our whole civilization are addicts. While I think we should enact regulations to curtail businesses so that they engage in moral behavior, I can't *blame* them when they act in a way designed to maximize their profit. That's capitalism - it's not the system I'd like, but it's what we have to work with, and within that system there are certain realities. At the same time, I find it moraly offensive when they do. I'm never surprised, but always disappointed.

Perhaps my "all the problems" let them off the hook - for that I apologize. Let it never be said I let an oil company off the hook.

From:

Ahh, the pure hatred that can only come from hating at faceless corporations. How I love thee :)

So far as I can tell, there aren't many (read: any) other choices in systems of economic organization besides capitalism. At least not that many that work on a global scale, which makes me sad a little bit. It rewards the guy who screws his buddy out of a wooden nickel, just bleh!

From:

Well, there's a difference between "pure" capitalism, and capitalism mediated by the state. Ideally, that's the role government is supposed to be play as shepherd of the economic markets within its jurisdiction - looking out for the interests of its citizens. Unfortunately here in the US we have a government ruled by ideology and not practical or merciful concerns.

From:

There is always the problem of every oil company being a massively inter-jurisdictional entity. The US slaps them on the wrist for doing bad things and they just close that plant and open it somewhere else or simply sell their own elsewhere since its a product that is in demand.

Meh, at least there looks to be hope on the horizon with rising gas prices.

From:

Yeah, 'cause they'll have .... more, money?

Hopefully higher gas prices will make consumers realize the poison teat they've been suckling at.

From:

electricland.livejournal.com

Sure, nobody's defending the oil companies. But the best way to poke them in the eye is not to buy gas TODAY, and every day. Not (trying to) gang up and shift consumption from Thursday to Friday -- exactly what will that accomplish?

I have been very restrained about the fire-sales GM and Chrysler have been holding on their gas-guzzling monsters. But those are a BIG problem.

I've forgotten most of my high school economics, but try this on for size. Gas is a perfectly elastic commodity, meaning that a litre of gas from one company is exactly the same as a litre of gas from another company, and meaning that it's pretty close to being a perfect market. All that gas companies really have to distinguish their product from their competitors' is price. If gas is truly vastly overpriced, there's room for one company to slash its prices in half and make a fortune. This isn't happening. I think you can safely assume that there are good reasons for that.

From:

I hazard a guess that it will accomplish pretty close to not a blessed thing. Except the outside possibility of fostering some sort of coherent thought on the part of consumers... which I know is like asking lemurs to do long division.

I hadn't really thought about the GM-Chrysler sales bonanza thing as anything other than a sign of their being in dire economic position. The gas-guzzling mostrousity of their fleet didn't even enter into my head, now that you mention it I feel like a knob for not noticing and pondering before though :S

I'm pretty sure that the price at the pumps is a true reflection of economic reality of producing, shipping and securing the product. However, I think that since the system is an oligarchy every now and then they keep the price inflated artifically slightly longer and coast down the price ladder as it were slower since there are only about 10-15 (maybe?) major gas companies in the world and nobody is likely to cut prices even a half a second earlier than strictly necessary. Especially with politics involved, whole countries economies are involved.

From:

raithen.livejournal.com

Oil is actually far from a perfectly elastic market because it is far from a truly free market. The words "cartel" and "oligarchy" have a lot in common. Oil and gas are HIGHLY regulated & taxed commodities and this affects supply side enormously. Prices do NOT purely reflect demand for gas in the way that free market demand is usually considered.

In fact, the comments on the news this morning are telling - with 20%+ of America's domestic oil production out of commission, prices are up. This reflects a form of hedging/futures trading/gouging. Supply today is the same as it was yesterday -- it will be days or weeks before the lack of production in the Gulf of Mexico will actually impact the market in a true way. And, in fact, Bush is going to be "releasing petroleum reserves" to counter the drop in Gulf Supply and to influence pricing.

It is just So. Far. from simple economics.

From:

I hate to say it, but high gas prices are probably good, in a way; people don't worry about conservation until it hits them where they live [or drive]. It hurts me, too, but if the ever steeper prices finally make people trade in those goddamned 2 mpg hogs and start worrying about fuel efficiency/conservation/alternatives, it'll be worth it.

There was an article in the NYT (?) recently about a woman who spends $80 to fill her giganto-mobile, and does so twice a week. Cry me a fucking river, lady.

(None of this is directed at you; I'm sorry about the truck, actually, but it sounded like you guys didn't buy it as a fancy status symbol in the first place.)

From:

(uh, whoops. I got my wires crossed replying to two different posters there - Syreene just traded in their truck on a fuel-efficient car.)

From:

themusesbitch.livejournal.com

I hate to say it, but high gas prices are probably good, in a way; people don't worry about conservation until it hits them where they live [or drive]. It hurts me, too, but if the ever steeper prices finally make people trade in those goddamned 2 mpg hogs and start worrying about fuel efficiency/conservation/alternatives, it'll be worth it.

Very true.

Also, it seems to me that the people this is going to hit hardest are the people who have more $$$ to begin with, since people struggling financially generally either don't have cars, or drive smaller, more practical vehicles.

Not to mention, you know... we are on the brink of actually RUNNING OUT of fossil fuel within the next handful of decades. Maybe this will be a wake-up call to everyone that oil lobby or not, we really do have to start looking to alternative sources of energy, particularly for transportation. Because at some point, it's not even going to be about money anymore, there just won't be any oil left, period.

From:

In a lot of cases, it appears, people bought more than they could afford, and are now trading in/losing vehicles. Call me unsympathetic, though, but if you bought a $40K SUV and can't handle the relative-to-price small increase in gas payments, you were way over your head anyway.

Yeah, I agree with the experts who've said that this is the way to "ease people into" the idea of oil running out; hopefully, this crunch will force some real progress on the non-fossil fuel front, because we're gonna need it. Things would (I hope not "will") get really ugly if nothing changed and the needle hit "zero" on the supply.

I'm willing to buy new again just to get a hybrid Camry (the car in my icon is ours, 14 months old, regular 4-cyl Camry, 35 mpg).

From:

themusesbitch.livejournal.com

I'm lucky -- I live right downtown, have no kids, and although I now work nearly in Markham, I can still get to work well under an hour by TTC (subway then bus). I know this isn't an option for most people, but I am a HUGE proponent of using public transportation as much as possible.

As for those who need cars, I'm all about economical models now, and then the automotive industrying deigning to join us here in the 21st century, where fossil fuels are not just a finite resource, but one we're using up at an alarming rate, far faster than necessary.

I think I'm babbling now. I do feel bad for the people who DID purchase economically, who need their vehicles for family or work related reasons, and are just tight enough that the increase in prices is really pinching... but sadly, these things just can't be avoided, especially in extreme situations like this.

From: