a thought

[electricland]

Got quite worked up and ranty (in my head) on the streetcar while considering moonlightjoy's post from yesterday. It's locked so I won't quote, but I would be willing to bet cash money that every woman out there has at one time or another gone through some variant of the following:

MAN: Hi.
WOMAN: Hi.
MAN: Come over here and talk to me.
WOMAN (smiles politely): No thanks.
MAN: Why not?
WOMAN: I don't want to.
MAN: You don't have to be such a bitch about it. I was just being nice.
WOMAN (who has been properly socialized): *feels guilty, wonders for the next several hours how she could have handled the situation better*

This is not the correct response. The correct response, for next time, is "Hey buddy, you are a complete stranger. What makes you so sure that your random claim on my time and attention is more important than whatever I want to be doing?"

Or "I am not a public service, and I don't care what you think of me."

Or even "No, you were not just being nice. You want to see me being a bitch about it? Fuck off."

---

Aside from that, how's everyone's morning?

Comments

[fairoriana.livejournal.com]

I once had a guy who would not take no for an answer. He actually demanded to see my wedding ring when I told him I was married and not interested. (Instead of the true but not polite simply not interested.) I mean really -- what, I have to have a doctor's note to not go on a date with you? Jerk.

But you get flummoxed, and hold out your left hand, and he peered at the ring as though to verify it's authenticity.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

That is just ridiculous. Wow. Though I believe you, as I once had a man tell me I was *lying* because I wasn't wearing my wedding ring. (Hey, it's midnight in an apartment laundry room. Aside from the scary aspects of being in there with a strange man alone, the fuck was I to know I had to have "MARRIED" tattooed on my forehead before I dared set foot in there?)

[electricland.livejournal.com]

Oyyyyy.

I was going to say "unbelievable", but sadly, I believe it...

[elissa-carey.livejournal.com]

Gah. I can't stand it when a guy thinks that if you don't want to talk to him or go out with him, that you're being a bitch. Excuse me? So what happens if he's the one not wanting to go out or talk: is he the asshole now? Can we properly call him on that too? I sure hope so, because that might pop a few overinflated male egos.

I've got a few ranty, choice words and responses to that:
"No. If I wanted to be a bitch, I would have told you to fuck off first thing, instead of being polite to you. Just because your mother didn't properly socialize you is no excuse for you to believe that I owe you something. I don't owe you a damned thing except politeness, and that I've already given and had flung back in my face. I highly suggest you refine your socialization skills, or you will find yourself a very lonely onanist when you're old."

[electricland.livejournal.com]

Oh so true. It's the bizarre sense of entitlement that gets me. What, you noticed my existence and now I'm supposed to be nice to you? No.

"Apparently in this society, being male and an asshole makes you worthy of
our time." -- Kat Stratford

(God I love that movie.)

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Boym, do I know *that* one. I like the last response, too. It's true, we've been "properly socialized" not to be a bitch, but you know what? If you're gonna be an asshole, I get to be a bitch.

Anyone who issues commands to total strangers in public places deserves what they get.

and "I am not a public service" is a good way of putting it. I'm not going to smile, be pretty, entertain you, or otherwise enhance your life just because I happen to a) have tits and b) have the misfortune to be in your presence. Too bad; bring a book next time. (Speaking of, I HATE when I am reading and a man comes over and tries to chat me up. Uh, jerk, you thought I had this book here so I'd look more womanly and approachable?)

[erbie.livejournal.com]

Have you read Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear? If not, read it. I need to read it again.

[lawgeekgurl.livejournal.com]

ah, the classic "you aren't interested in me, so something is wrong with you" ploy.

asshats.

[moonlightjoy.livejournal.com]

hehe! Yeah... I especially refrain from telling the guys who hit on me that I'm a lesbian, because then of course THAT is the reason I'm not into the guy and not cuz he's a creep...

[rubberneck.livejournal.com]

Apparently I have not been properly socialized, as my response (on those few memorable occasions when some stranger tried to pick me up--including a self-proclaimed 'pimp' in downtown Baltimore) is usually a "No" without the thanks, and so it never escalates. Or they just want to watch me walk away, perhaps, check out the junk in the trunk.

I tend to be hit on randomly by gregarious black men and Latino boys.

And my immediate reaction to the above conversation was anger, not guilt, because the conversation starts out with a command on his part and that always gets my back up right quick.

[erbie.livejournal.com]

I haven't either. I just ignore people like this, and if they don't get the idea, I tell them straight out to get away from me. Of course, most of the time when I'm out, I've either got my kid or my husband with me, so it doesn't happen as often as when I was single. But even then, I didn't bother with the niceties if someone got my hackles up.

[electricland.livejournal.com]

I am very glad to hear it, and will try to emulate.

[calebbullen.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget the flipside to this:

Man: Hi!
Woman: What are you some kind of a deranged sex pervert!? Go away or I'll scream!

Man to himself: damn, I was just trying to be friendly. what a bitch. I can't wait to tell my girlfriend.

[erbie.livejournal.com]

But the other scenario is FAR more common. Ask any woman friend you know. If a woman isn't interested in talking to a man, any man, for ANY reason, she's automatically a bitch. Men don't understand the lives that women lead. Any random guy talking to you could be sizing you up to be his next victim. Obviously not all men, but how am I to know if Random Guy in the dark parking lot offering to help me with my groceries really is just offering to help, or is trying to get close enough to punch me in the face and drag me off?

This is the life women lead EVERY day. It's not something men have to think about. When was the last time you decided to leave the laundry in the laundry room overnight, not because you were too lazy to get it, but because you were afraid to go out there and get it by yourself? Do you constantly look around when you're walking after dark, to make sure there's no-one getting too close or looking at you funny? It's just a different life for women.

[lilactime.livejournal.com]

I once got hassled by a black guy in a variety store who, when I refused to say hello back to him and rebuffed his advances, started causing a scene suggesting that I was purposely being rude to him because he was black. My response was that I don't talk to strangers on the street, regardless of the colour of their skin, and given that we were at the corner of Bloor and Lansdowne and I had just seen him talking to a known heroine dealer, ignoring his attentions was really a very reasonable course of action. Then the store owner kicked him out. :)

[electricland.livejournal.com]

hee.

yes, that's always a fun one. "You're prejudiced!"
"Only against assholes."

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

Oh, GOD. The first random guy who ever hit on me suggested I turned him down because he was black. GOD.

[kendokamel.livejournal.com]

Ah, PePe le Pew lives on. d:

[electricland.livejournal.com]

hee!

[rottenfruit.livejournal.com]

It's kind of a shame, that 99% of the time that I talk to strangers, they want something from me: sex, money, to save my soul. Yet I continue to talk to strangers because I'd like to believe we live in a world where people can reach out to one another, instead of being afraid of human contact...

[electricland.livejournal.com]

Yes! and good for you! I think the majority of people are perfectly nice and sane. Sadly, it's the others that are more visible.

wow. timing = freaky.

[claris.livejournal.com]

I was just talking about this somewhere else...but I cross-posted just for you...

Freak Beacon Fun.

Re: wow. timing = freaky.

[electricland.livejournal.com]

that is indeed freaky. eeek.

what I always want to know is, do these approaches actually work for anybody? And why? Is it the shotgun approach? Ask enough girls where they live and eventually one will tell you?

[moonlightjoy.livejournal.com]

To be honest with you, the conversation went more like,

Man: "Hi."
Me: "uhhh.. ew."
Man: "I'm [insert name]"
Me: "Go away."
Man: "Huh? Really?"
Me: "Yeah." and I ignored him.

Actually, many of my encounters with men hitting on me have been the same:

Man: "I'd like to get to know you."
Me: "No, thanks."
Man: "Really?"
Me: "Yeah. Really."
Man: "Oh."

or

Man: "Are you asian?"
Me: "....?"
Man: "What kind of asian are you?"
Me: "... Filipino. ....?"
Man: "You know I've never had an asian girlfriend before.. You interested?"
Me: "No."
Man: "Oh? No?"
Me: "Nope."

And then they are confused, but they go away. I find this tactic much more direct and effective than ignoring them. Cuz if you ignore them they don't go away. So now I very firmly tell them to leave me alone.

Oh, or this one time I was on the metro and this man was sitting next to me and seriously staring at me.. I looked up to glare at him, but he took it as an invitation to say hello. And he did, and I said hi back.. and then I said, "You're making me uncomfortable. Could you please stop looking at me?" and he said, "Oh.. okay." and turned away.

=D

[electricland.livejournal.com]

hee! Good for you.

"I've never had an asian girlfriend before"? Give me strength.

I figured I'd just make a new comment, 'cause you're gonna go plaid.

[claris.livejournal.com]

clearly one of us is part of the problem here, I'm sorry to say though, I don't think it's me.
You know, I don't think you get the distinction that's being made here. It's not necessarily a matter of safety, it's a level of social impropriety that has in the past led to safety issues. When I saw this post, I posted back this link with a story of my own.

Now, why is that all right? Did I do anything to that guy to provoke him? No. I was walking past him. Me, personally, I have the ability to walk past someone & mentally appreciate the way they look - I might even smile at the guy. But if he doesn't notice, or he doesn't stop to talk to me, I don't turn around and yell after him inquiring if his tootsie-roll dick inhibits his ability to speak to females, now do I?

Because here's the thing - the person that stated, "I am not a public service"? that is spot on. Just because I'm female doesn't give you the right to make whatever remarks you want about me. You walk through my LJ, you'll see stories about me working as a valet. You want to see rampant examples of what these girls are talking about, you go to West LA for a night. I worked at a really nice four star hotel - lotsa money, very posh, very proper. and from that, I have seen girls drugged by strangers, girls have the date they came with get them so fucked up they can't walk & we wouldn't let him take her home. I have had girls come up to me as the only female valet there & say, "Look, I didn't let this guy buy me a drink, and now he's following me. Can you call me a cab, because I don't want him to see my car - I'll come back & get it in the morning."
Now, before you say something about club girls or how they're dressed, lemme 'splain something to you - I was wearing black pants and a black guys XL t-shirt when I worked this gig on the weekends. And yet, I swatted away many a hand from my ass, declined phone numbers, and politely smiled & nodded while ignoring invites to return to rooms with guests. Now some guys took it well - others? Others had issues with the fact that the valet had just refused them, and they felt the need to make an issue of it. Because while some guys will just nod & see it as "oh well didn't work" - others? Others aren't that nice about it, & those are the guys women worry about.

if nothing else, it's embarassing. I'm just trying to get through my life, dude. That's it. I'm sorry if you feel slighted, but that's all I'm doing. And half the time, until you start to make a thing of it...I'm not thinking about you. I'm running through my grocery list, or trying to figure out how to rearrange things so that I can leave my car at the mechanic all weekend without having to rent a car. I'm not walking around thinking "I'm going to make a man cry today." I'm just trying to live my life. Now if guys get to do that without having women yell that they must be gay because you don't want to talk to them, why shouldn't I get the same courtesy?

It's the perception that some men have that women have to stop & talk to them, which is fed into by the fact that we are taught to be polite & not make a scene. I've fallen for it, I'll admit that. You're sitting there, thinking, "I'm trying to leave, why won't you let me leave, stop asking me questions?" but at the same time, it's been ingrained that you shouldn't be rude, you shouldn't make a scene. You know, since moving to LA, especially in the last year...I stopped worrying about that, thanks. If I want to talk to you, I will. If I don't, I'm just going to keep walking.

see? Plaid.

[claris.livejournal.com]

When I went back to school last fall, I remarked in my lj that I'd taken to walking around campus on my cell phone, or even with the earpiece to my phone in my ear when I was walking around after dark. Why? Because it was an easy way to extricate myself from the guys who thought it was all right to yell, "Hey Baby, you fine, can I git wi'choo?" You smile, nod, & keep walking, they'd get pissed off & start shit with you. You hold up a cell phone and point to your ear, they go, "ah-ite girl, I catch you later." Well, no, you really won't, but why should I have to justify why I don't feel like talking to a complete stranger if I've been rather polite about the fact that...I don't want to talk to you. and that's what it comes down to - my right to go about my day unharassed. because these guys that do that? If they don't care about basic social barriers like that, how do you know they're not going to come after you because you "wronged" them in some way? and that's what it goes back to - the fact that, for many women, that kind of rudeness & inappropriateness can often lead to actual harassment or violence. That's what these women are trying to explain to you.

It's not that there aren't Nice Guys in the world. When I was a valet (and I'm not talking years ago, btw - I quit that job about...eh, what's it been five weeks now?) I had guys bring over a girl that they'd just...found out front. They were pretty sure she was a hotel guest that some guy had met in the club & drugged up, & they wanted to make sure someone took care of her. Good Guys exist, and I'm sorry if you're having a hard time, but you know what? There is a percentage of your gender that is making things harder for you, just like the stupid slutty girls make things harder for my gender. And so yes. Because of that percentage of assholes, women are wary - you don't have signs! If you had a sign that said "Asshole" or "Not Asshole" - trust me, I'd be okay with that. But there are no signs, and we have to be wary for our own protection.

Oh, and before you ask, I'm 5'10", of a fairly sturdy build, I can run an 8 min mile, I taught kickboxing for about four years, and I'm in classes now with a Golden Gloves champion - physically, there are very few men I have reason to fear. But that doesn't make this any less of a consideration in my world.

Hope that clears things up a little for ya.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Yep. I've had men come up to me and ask me my name and try to get me to talk to them and follow me around. Especially around bus terminals, or when I was on my way to college in the morning.

And I've had a guy drive by while I was walking home one night ask me if I gave blowjobs. WTF? And another car circle three times around the block where I was waiting for a bus one other night, and guys in a car yell at me when I was walking home from the video rental store on another night. I've started to make it a point of noticing license plates.

And there was a woman raped one night just two blocks from my home, after she'd just gotten off the bus.

And then there's this little anecdote.

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

*headdesk*

Yeah, if you just got a random comment about external harddrives? Blame that on too many open windows and similar background colors. *cringe*

So, um, I don't have anything to add to the discussion, but this is one of my biggest pet peeves. I remember reading a fanfic where a guy was surprised to learn that a woman could tell when, "Hey, cute dog," meant, "Hey, cute dog," and when it meant, "Hey, wanna have sex?" Which is probably a sexist overgeneralization but GOD, I DO NOT CHAT UP RANDOM GUYS, NO MATTER HOW CUTE THEY ARE. STOP TALKING TO ME.